Psychopaths and Artists: An Interview with Consultant Psychologist Tim Watson-Munro (1996)

On September 12, 1996, I interviewed the Melbourne-based consultant psychologist, Tim Watson-Munro, in his Melbourne office. Mr. Watson-Munro has been closely associated with many criminal cases in his professional capacity.

 

Consultant psychologist, Tim Waton-Munro

S.C.: When we consider the history of Western Art, it is liberally sprinkled with artists who have concentrated on dark themes. Do you think there are certain individuals who are drawn to, and focus on, the darker elements of existence?

T.W-M.: Yes, absolutely. There are some people who have a very maudlin view of life. In highly creative people – artists, for instance - there are what we may term hysterical personalities who are anxious, neurotic types. Well, actually, 'neurotic’ is a term I don't really like to use, but it certainly has an onomatopoeic feel to it, like ‘psychopath’, as a way of describing sorts of behaviour. It conjures a useful image. And there are also depressed personalities who can use a lot of displaced energy thinking about death. These people can be more or less placed into two categories. The first category is those who are suicidal and spend a lot of time thinking about their own death - and this is also the case with people going through a sort of midlife crisis, when they perceive they are a lot closer to the end of their life than the beginning. The second category is the violent psychopathic thrill-killer who will also fantasise about death and become just as excited about it, though in a different way. There may be a sexual element to his fantasies, whereby, in an odd way, death and sexuality are somehow intertwined. He may, for instance, masturbate while thinking about violence and violent imagery.

S.C.: In that case, can a link be found between creative artists who make images of human suffering and the habitual killer, say, who regularly manifests death and suffering around him?

T.W-M.: Well, the highly creative person - and not just the artist, but also the composer or writer, for instance - can derive considerable therapeutic relief from working through his obsessions in a creative way. It is the personal interaction with his obsessions which can be cathartic, and which allow him to constantly reassess his priorities and values. In the serial killer, we have someone who will kill again and again for the thrill of it, and although they may be sometimes troubled by a guilty conscience about what they have done, this is not sufficient to stop them.

S.C.: Is there a sense in which, by his actions, the serial killer elects to separate himself from society in a conscious way?

T.W-M.: Not entirely, because these people are renowned for fitting into their surroundings. This is why they are so expert at avoiding capture. The Yorkshire Ripper, (1.) for example, led an unspectacular life outside his criminal activities. I think he was interviewed several times by the police and let go each time. His wife was apparently shocked when she found out about his secret life - as were his neighbours. So, they are never totally separated from society. In fact, a large part of them remains very much in society. Another case was that of the Hillside Strangler.(2.) He had actually studied psychology at some point.

S.C.: Are there, in your opinion, any personality types that may be more likely to embark on a career of habitual murder?

T.W-M.: Well, there may be range of types, but ‘psychopathic’ is the word that comes to mind. These offenders are really Jekyll and Hyde types. They lead a very rich fantasy life, and they keep this aspect very private. Their attitude to other people will be well contained in fantasy - for years sometimes. But ultimately, this fantasy becomes insufficient. Essentially, there are often two functioning personalities operating within them. They appear completely normal on the outside and may be well-regarded. The so-called ‘Granny Killer’ (3.) is one example of this. They present well to the outside world, so are not entirely dissociated from it.

S.C.: But the fantasy proves insufficient?

T.W-M.: Yes. Eventually they will break out of the fantasy and act out elements of it. They may begin by stalking someone before their first murder. The first murder may seem almost random. But it will give them a great thrill. Usually, a sexual element goes along with it. They become junkies for the thrill - like a drug addict - in their search for victims. And as they progress, they become more desensitised to their own actions. This is as opposed to someone who goes berserk with a gun, as in Port Arthur – incidentally, they are now investigating that person… have you been following that one up? (4.)

S.C.: Yes, I have.

T.W-M.: So, you know they're looking into much earlier murders he may have committed - an Italian tourist was one. In fact, I had something to do with that particular case, so I am very interested to see what develops from that investigation - because if he has murdered people over a long time ago, and then gone on a shooting spree, that would be highly unusual. I don't know of any other case where that has happened.

S.C.: According to FBI profiling experts, it is usual for habitual killers to escalate the violence perpetrated on their victims, and to introduce ‘personalisation’ about the crime scene. Does this indicate a degree of creativity on the part of the killer?

T.W-M.: Yes. These people are driven by their obsessive fantasies. They are overridden with sexual tension and are almost compelled to relieve that in murder and destruction - as opposed to abseiling, or rock climbing, or painting, for that matter. They are obsessed with their actions. And hand-in-hand with that goes a huge ego investment. They really enjoy their notoriety…

S.C.: … and will collect newspaper reports about themselves.

T.W-M.: Yes. They enjoy the shock they cause. They want people to know about them. They come to love the publicity. That is why they personalised their murders. It becomes a signature. They may also take souvenirs from the victim - or body parts. Ed Gein, (5.) for example, kept the skins of his victims, and their heads, and other parts, about his house.

S.C.: And Ed Kemper kept heads also. (6.)

T.W-M.: Yes, I believe it was Kemper who would take a head into the shower and masturbate into its mouth. So, these souvenirs are used to relive the crime and augment the fantasies. The Belanglo Forest killer (7.) kept souvenirs - in fact, that is the single most convincing evidence of that person's guilt - the evidence of the kept items from the victims. He also apparently left, or buried, the bodies in a certain way, which became a sort of trademark. 

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(1.) Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper, murdered 13 women and attempted to murder 7 others, in Manchester and West Yorkshire, between 1975 and 1980.

(2.) Kenneth Bianchi, the Hillside Strangler, in partnership with his cousin, Angelo Buono Jnr., murdered at least 12 women in Los Angeles, between 1977-79.

(3.) John Wayne Glover, the so-called Granny Killer, murdered six elderly women, aged from 60 - 93, in the suburbs of Sydney, between 1989-90.

(4.) In 1996, Martin Bryant went on a shooting spree at the Port Arthur tourist site, in Tasmania, killing 35 people and wounding 23 others.

(5.) In Wisconsin, between 1947-57, Ed Gein was responsible for mutilating at least 9 corpses and desecrating their graves. He also murdered two women (one was his mother). He is suspected of murdering a further 7 people.

(6.) Edmund Kemper, the so-called 'Co-Ed Killer', murdered six college students before murdering his mother and her best friend, in Santa Cruz, California, between 1964-1973.

(7.) Ivan Milat, the so-called 'Backpack Killer', murdered 7 young people, between the ages of 19-22, in the Belanglo State Forest, in NSW, between 1989-93.